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 Post subject: gun chat
PostPosted: November 28th, 2011, 6:27 pm 
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I know I've hidden it pretty well, but I really enjoy guns. For me they are physical, cultural, and yes war-making artifacts/tools that are borne of very specific times in history and different creative/design processes. So I made a thread to talk about guns.


A lot of people have been talking about MW3, and the series ongoing peculiar habit of suddenly increasing the visibility of a design that was either prototypical or marginal. The Remington/Magpul ACR with MW2, and with MW3 now it's the FPG-9.
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Which has not made it to production (so far as we know), but it's a cute little folding shell for a Glock action to make a Glock into a machine pistol (so long as you put a Glock-18 in there). Now of course due to the game, a piquant little side project from a high end military gear company is suddenly very well known by millions.

Like cars, like a lot of things, guns aren't automatically lauded for "working," they usually need to look good in order to survive (remind me to goad a friend to post his pet theory about how this relates to military arms procurement, especially with fighter planes). For me there's an uncomfortable relationship there. Actual guns get purchased because of their fictive exploits. Clint Eastwood singlehandedly got a goofy, oversized revolver permanently ingrained into gun culture.

But what I love is that, as in cars, most good ideas we have seen before. And in the world of guns, if Browning didn't do it first, Stoner probably did.

Here is the Ares folding machine gun, which was the same idea as the Magpul gun, just a lot less sleek about it and roughly thirty years previous. Also had an option to be disguised as as portable radio, because you know, totally square bodyguard types do nothing but stand around holding portable radios in the '80s. (Wait, I think they actually did this?)

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http://ksatria.edublogs.org/2006/01/10/ ... chine-gun/

I know who did this, the same guys who presumably were the target market for these M1 Carbine holsters. Lookin' good, guys.

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Anyway, just a little opening prattle. Enjoy talking about guns here. Please post a picture of the gun you are talking about. You can even talk about fictional weapons but you need to bring the nerd on it like it was a real one.


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 28th, 2011, 6:52 pm 
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why doesnt any game have the k-50m yet :(


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 28th, 2011, 7:09 pm 
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for the uninitiated p-dog loves this weird little beastie

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http://world.guns.ru/smg/vietn/k-50m-e.html


also world.guns.ru is a good place to browse about guns


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 28th, 2011, 7:27 pm 
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this is a pretty good summation of my feelings on guns



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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 28th, 2011, 7:29 pm 
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i never noticed until now that the gun shop owner is clearly hungover


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 1:57 am 
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design innovation watch:


a lot of hubbub has been made about the KSG, Kel-Tec's well meaning bullpup pump shotgun (bullpump?) coincidentally also featured in MW3. But for my money the SRM 1216 is a lot more interesting of a design. The KSG's flaws reside in still being pump action, and still needing to manually select which magazine tube the shells feed from. The SRM addresses this problem in a more kinetic fashion, by making it a detachable proprietary mag that the user rotates to select a new tube. (Yes, I am viewing this in terms of a reload animation and I know you are too.)

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Here's an amateur designer, Longziz, demonstrating his first rifle design, the Longziz #1. He admits that the trigger is poor (common to many bullpup designs), but for a first outing, his solution for the receiver and the full ambidextrous firing port are pretty ingenious. #2 should really be something.

In a clever work-around, the whole thing is built around a common AR-15 receiver (the firearm, as pertains to US law) so he needs no filed paperwork to manufacture, or sell his kit.
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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 2:23 am 
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I like that firing port quite a bit, but it's somewhat telling how awkward the switch back from left->right is for him as a right-handed dude. Not that you'd need to do that much in the field, but it makes me wonder how useful it would be in actual use - if a left-dominant gives it to a right-dominant, how much fumbling is needed before he can use it? how are the other components engineered, and are they susceptible to the same design biases?


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 2:56 am 
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make the first level of animal memory be where you break into a museum called "p-dog's museum of all his favorite guns that are also never included in any games" and you take everything in it


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 4:22 am 
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Still sad that the EM-2 has never made it into a game.


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 4:34 am 
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the EM-2 was a piece of shit. I have played with a couple of those in shrivenham armoury, the whole "before its time" thing is a myth. The SA80a1 was crap because it was born from a crappy design.

I remember first seeing the ares folding sub-machinegun in Robocop 2 and thinking that it was the coolest thing I had ever seen.

Now I'm an adult, and have an entire life of weapons experience behind me, I like AKs and anything with a 16 inch barrel chambered in 7.62mm. With a weapon like that you can fight in close confines with a reasonable degree of ability and still kill cunts out to 800m.

This gun. the L129A1. The production variant doesn't have a fixed stock or shiny barrel, and we now use polymer mags but you get the idea.


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 2:36 pm 
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here is a thought on guns:

Guns are clearly part of a long tradition of phallic objects that penetrate/impregnate one's enemies to death. The pop mythos of manliness went from swords to guns, skipping over a lot of effective weapons like pick-axes, flails, bows, etc. mostly I think because they didn't have the right form factor.


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 4:32 pm 
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Bollocks. the bow was the most prominent weapon in the world for hundreds of years, and that is on your list of "skipped over" weapons.

It's a very feminine concept to think of weapons in a phallic sense, those of us that use them just want them to do their job. They are tools, there's nothing macho about it.


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 5:27 pm 
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Most of the guns I have seen and used have done nothing more than knock over cans, and I have handled dozens of weapons. I think most people here buy them because they like the idea of them.

My point is that even though bows are very effective and popular, they don't seem to feature prominently in any culture's legends besides the Indians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_my ... al_objects


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 5:45 pm 
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So, wait, you can come up with some sort of gun that adheres to specific parameters in the US that don't infringe on copyright and you can then sell that shit?


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 6:06 pm 
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Ninjas wrote:
Most of the guns I have seen and used have done nothing more than knock over cans, and I have handled dozens of weapons. I think most people here buy them because they like the idea of them.

My point is that even though bows are very effective and popular, they don't seem to feature prominently in any culture's legends besides the Indians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_my ... al_objects



I see, we come from different worlds. I'm English, we have no gun culture and Robin hood has been famous for hundreds of years.


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 6:34 pm 
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Darkchild, was hoping to lure you in with this thread. All the better for the anecdote about actually handling the EM-2, if there's any more to tell about your impressions of it please do so. What a fascinating bit of history to me, that whole period (wherein: most of NATO attempts to adopt a cartridge and then the US just does whatever it wants anyway while still holding onto the M14).

Also would you comment on the nearly century-long British obsession with bullpup designs? I am amazed that such an imperative could drive for so long despite never really coming out with anything worthwhile.

I think the L129A1 is interesting because it is essentially an AR-10, which was first proposed to the US military previous to the M14 and rejected, and then we ended up with the AR-15, and then only belatedly saw the design come back to 7.62 (though of course with all the incremental design changes and improvements that the AR-15 saw over decades).

And as for Aubrey's comment it seems borne from a certain kind of disenchantment with the fetishism that guns receive in the US. I am generally not a fan at all in the long, long held gear/tech fetishism present in the culture of the US military. Which of course is now extended through cultural artifacts like the COD games, where you can now shoot your ridiculous hybrid sight at tangos all you want.

I don't think in the US military it has as much to do with phallic extensions insomuch as the mistaken idea that we can magically engineer the perfect solution to warfare, when I think Darkchild has it right, and clearly borne from experience. At the end of the day you get something you can handle up close and is still accurate enough out far, and the rest is gravy. And in fact if you want to get better it's probably going to do with the person handling the weapon and their training and fortitude, not what is mounted to your tactical rail. Gains in ergonomics and manufacturing for small arms have been incremental at best in the modern era.


Doesn't stop them from being very interesting to me as historical objects, but as working tools I think Darkchild is right.


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 6:44 pm 
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Oh, Robin Hood is a good counterexample. It's true he did not come to mind for me.

Yeah, the phallic thing is certainly not the whole story. One reason people like guns is that it is one of the few objects these days that are still built to last and that are passed down from generation to generation. A lot of weapons have a neat history to them.

Of course, there is also the deeply held idea here in the US that guns are the safeguard of liberty.

As an artist I deal mostly with the ideas tied to objects. It makes perfect sense to me that as a professional soldier you would have a totally different attitude towards them.

Most of the Europeans I have talked to react to news that I think guns are neat with about the same enthusiasm as hearing I have a turd collection.


Last edited by Ninjas on November 29th, 2011, 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 6:49 pm 
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Without being qualified to comment specifically on his manual of arms (always a bunch of talk about charging the AK with the off-hand etc), I like this clip because it shows the kind of fluid, extension-of-the-body feeling that DC is talking about. This man is very clearly familiar with the exact weight and balancing of the AK, and it sort of just glides around in his arms with preternatural ease



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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 7:51 pm 
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Speaking of guns, a friend of mine just made this video, which I think explains why I lot of American gun owners accidentally shoot people/things:



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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 8:22 pm 
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:D Now all the gun enthusiasts can tell me how I'm on the verge of killing myself and everyone who watches by holding my gun wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 2:36 am 
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gauss wrote:


For those not entirely sure what he's talking about, in the first part of the video he's talking about handling the weapon. He describes that, with his hand and fingers holding the AK in a certain (neutral? I've no idea as to the lingo) position in his right, when he brings it up to aim, his thumb naturally comes down over the safety followed by drawing back the chamber thing and he's immediately ready to fire. In the latter part, he's talking about how to prepare for random/sudden encounters, and how a simple flick with his left elbow/arm and placement of the feet allow him to aim in any direction in more or less the same amount of time as the stock naturally comes back to his right shoulder in the exact same way regardless of angle/height.

I live down the road from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and I've often wondered the reason why the police there cradle their guns in such a manner, as the fact that they tended to point upwards mildly terrified me (I thought the golden rule of gun safety was always have the thing pointing down). Now I know. Interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 3:24 am 
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gauss wrote:
Darkchild, was hoping to lure you in with this thread. All the better for the anecdote about actually handling the EM-2, if there's any more to tell about your impressions of it please do so. What a fascinating bit of history to me, that whole period (wherein: most of NATO attempts to adopt a cartridge and then the US just does whatever it wants anyway while still holding onto the M14).

I never got fire it unfortunately, but it felt poorly constructed, poorly balanced, the controls were counter intuitive, the optics pointless (it was basically a x1 hunting scope, so perfect eye relief had to be attained for no benefit, might as well use iron sights) and the whole thing felt like old-school sci-fi fanwank.

Also would you comment on the nearly century-long British obsession with bullpup designs? I am amazed that such an imperative could drive for so long despite never really coming out with anything worthwhile.

It's political. We shot ourselves in the foot with the SA80 family and now we're stuck with them, as it would look weak if the government suddenly bought a shitload of G36Ks. Strangely enough, the current L85A2 with theatre entry standard mods is a good (if heavy) rifle. If you accept the inherent flaws with a bullpup design, that is.

I think the L129A1 is interesting because it is essentially an AR-10, which was first proposed to the US military previous to the M14 and rejected, and then we ended up with the AR-15, and then only belatedly saw the design come back to 7.62 (though of course with all the incremental design changes and improvements that the AR-15 saw over decades).

Love it, saw it coming for years. As a sniper I've always heavily endorsed 7.62mm, but NATO insists that the pissy little 5.56mm cartrisge is adequate for real combat. It lacks the kinetic energy to reliably drop a man-sized target with one round, it loses the ability to form a decent group past 400m, which negates the weight savings you get with 5.56mm. You end up carrying twice as much ammo as you would need because all you can do is suppress, which is where this American mentality of spraying and praying comes from.
We need to wind this back to old-school British marksmanship, like WW1 levels of shooting. Back in 1914, soldiers were expected to hit 8 out of 10 targets at a 1000 yards with iron sights. Now it's a 70% hit rate at 400m with an ACOG. These old standards are possible with 7.62mm. The platform is secondary to training and fire effect. As long as it works you could shove any 7.62mm rifle in my hand


And as for Aubrey's comment it seems borne from a certain kind of disenchantment with the fetishism that guns receive in the US. I am generally not a fan at all in the long, long held gear/tech fetishism present in the culture of the US military. Which of course is now extended through cultural artifacts like the COD games, where you can now shoot your ridiculous hybrid sight at tangos all you want.

Don't get me started on COD players.

I don't think in the US military it has as much to do with phallic extensions insomuch as the mistaken idea that we can magically engineer the perfect solution to warfare, when I think Darkchild has it right, and clearly borne from experience. At the end of the day you get something you can handle up close and is still accurate enough out far, and the rest is gravy. And in fact if you want to get better it's probably going to do with the person handling the weapon and their training and fortitude, not what is mounted to your tactical rail. Gains in ergonomics and manufacturing for small arms have been incremental at best in the modern era.

Agreed.

Doesn't stop them from being very interesting to me as historical objects, but as working tools I think Darkchild is right.


Saying all that, I do love guns, I am a gamer after all :) I just have a very strong detachment between games and real life.

Darkchild


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 3:29 am 
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ninjaculation wrote:
:D Now all the gun enthusiasts can tell me how I'm on the verge of killing myself and everyone who watches by holding my gun wrong.


Another post cos I can't multi-quote.
I would actually say, that as a non-regular gun user you have probably made the best choice in buying a shotgun. It's not semi/auto so can't discharge accidentally more than once, and it isn't a pistol.

Pistols are the main reason unqualified idiots kill themselves, down to their "pointability". This is exactly the same reason we don't allow civilian visitors to our range use pistols. They tend to turn round when you speak to them, (despite specifically telling them not to do this moments before) then they wonder why they get punched after pointing a loaded weapon at me.

This problem is curiously absent with long guns, people seem unconciously aware that they are dangerous and should be kept pointing in a safe direction.


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 4:03 am 
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bring back ww2
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Image


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 Post subject: Re: gun chat
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 5:34 am 
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dudeglove wrote:

For those not entirely sure what he's talking about, in the first part of the video he's talking about handling the weapon. He describes that, with his hand and fingers holding the AK in a certain (neutral? I've no idea as to the lingo) position in his right, when he brings it up to aim, his thumb naturally comes down over the safety followed by drawing back the chamber thing and he's immediately ready to fire. In the latter part, he's talking about how to prepare for random/sudden encounters, and how a simple flick with his left elbow/arm and placement of the feet allow him to aim in any direction in more or less the same amount of time as the stock naturally comes back to his right shoulder in the exact same way regardless of angle/height.

I live down the road from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and I've often wondered the reason why the police there cradle their guns in such a manner, as the fact that they tended to point upwards mildly terrified me (I thought the golden rule of gun safety was always have the thing pointing down). Now I know. Interesting.


Haha, sometimes I forget our in-house Russian translator. I assumed his talking points would be much the same but thank you for the translation nonetheless.

And as far as gun safety, it's generally much safer to point up than down, especially if the police are operating standing around on concrete and other hard surfaces with potential for ricochets. But then I wouldn't worry about any of that, trained personnel are very responsible with weapon handling. On the other hand, Russia.


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