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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 15th, 2012, 5:19 pm 
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Haha yeah tracking the ammo is a whole other kettle of fish, it's true. Well, think on it.

And sorry to disappoint DC, but no MOLLE or rails. Setting is coming better into focus and the tech level is kind of... more limited to maybe the early 80s or so. It's totally arbitrary I know, but that's the fun part about putting together your own universe.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 17th, 2012, 4:30 am 
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gauss wrote:
Very cool, nice ideas Chaya. The key points we're considering here are:

- what in combat/out of combat dynamics we wish to reinforce
- ease/difficulty of current loadout vs. changing loadout
- what resolution the magazine/ammo handling is presented at

Something you should know is that several of the weapons now, like the Obrez and the Dardick, are fed via loose rounds. So whatever solution I end up using for the system, it needs to take into account being able to stock and use single rounds. Now, a way around that particular issue (seems silly just to have one of the pouches be a loose pile of 7.62×54mmR) is to hand-wave up designs for disposable "feedbox" magazines that fill up a pouch, that dispense rounds at a time into the hand for the appropriate weapons, but are not detachable box magazines in the conventional sesne. That way you could reasonably allow the player to swap out pouches for anything, even if it's loose rounds.

There's a lot to like about the way Receiver handles a lot of the gun mechanics stuff, but in my mind that level of resolution begets it's own difficulties, and will need to be paired carefully with the resolution/tempo of the combat. In the current form I am considering something a bit faster than that, if only because I don't want the timing on the combat to slow down so much that it becomes a poor man's SWAT game (poor in that I don't think we're going to end up with AI that will stand up to the fidelity of a SWAT game, but should do well in a more fast paced mode).


Given that you have to track loose rounds in the 'feedbox' model (which could just use a box mag, right?) how are you going to integrate that into the system? this is as much of a UI/UX problem as a mechanic issue - you'd then be able to swap them out appropriately per weapon, but would have to track a much more granular ammo count along with the more 'simple' 30 rounders from weapon to weapon. RO does the mag weight thing, but that always annoyed me with its imprecision - as DC says, you'd know how many rounds you had left. [weird sidenote - I can't find many resources on keeping track of retained magazines in combat. most resources are competition shooters or hypotheticals. Seems like dropping the mag at speed, even a partial one, is what "should" happen in combat but people retain them mostly because they've been trained to and are inexperienced. either way the idea is to refill them later, after the fighting's done. DC?]

maybe you could have a window in the side and a separate button to take it out and look at it. reloading would be done until you grab for a bullet and it's not there, i guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 17th, 2012, 5:29 am 
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Just add a button which shows a small prompt somewhere on the edges of the screen which briefly points out what you have left and how much and where. (Togglable)


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 17th, 2012, 6:16 am 
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That would be tied into the earlier discussion about mag change mechanics. I think it should use the socom method of showing you total amount of mags (obv for your current weapon only, changing upon weapon change) and how many rounds are in the current magazine, that's it. No total ammo count.
The magazines would cycle consistently, so eventually you'd get back to that mag you swapped out ten minutes ago with five rounds in it. Consilodating ammo to make full mags could be a deliberate action taken in lulls in the battle (like in real life, this would cause masses of tension).
You naturally get a "feel" for how much ammo you have rather than an exact number, as you know how many rounds you started with and you know how many half mags you swapped out. Over the period of a few minutes you would instinctively know how much longer you could sustain your fight without knowing a number.
This would create a very realistic method of ammo conservation, plus eliminating the annoying fps habit of reloading every 2 bastard rounds.

You only drop mags in an emergency in combat as if you did it all the time you would be left with no mags. But it is a very useful technique for very rapid reloads (especially back in the day when we didn't get sidearms).
Retaining mags in a game makes much more sense as you don't have a logistics chain following you up ressupplying you every hour or so.
I keep saying saying it but I think the option to retain or dump should be there, again using the socom model of pressing and holding reload for 1/2 second or so to prompt a deliberate mag change, or double tapping to dump the mag and slam in a new one.
This is the most satisfying reload method I've ever experienced in a game.

Either way I'm just chatting shit and I'm interested to see what way Gauss takes it.

Darkchild


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 17th, 2012, 11:01 am 
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I'm all against magazines magically refilling themselves. The way it is in ArmA and SWAT4 is good. SWAT4 even had a constant visual mag representation to show you how much was in each mag.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 17th, 2012, 11:22 am 
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Yeah, refilling mags should definitely be a manual activity. Maybe through inventory in a safe area, but in real time in combat?

Darkchild


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 17th, 2012, 12:19 pm 
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I like DC's comments regarding Ammo conservation dictating your combat approach. As for the mechanics of distributing your ammo between mags in an FPS environment (i.e. without incorporating some kind of mouse driven inventory menu)... i'll have to dwell on it for a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 17th, 2012, 2:02 pm 
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No way you'd be manually placing bullet by bullet in real time. So yeah, safe area only.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 17th, 2012, 2:40 pm 
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orikae: absolutely it's a UI issue intertwined with ammo management, that's what makes it so difficult. It's funny to work on body awareness stuff for the game and learn, "the hard way", why games that haven't gone the easy route (bolting a fake gun and arms to the camera) do things certain ways, because there are common problems.

For instance, even with having as good of body awareness as we can have, visually, proprioception is still a real bitch this side of VR. I always thought the weapon-holding poses, especially for pistols, was a little odd in ArmA2, but ten minutes in 3dsmax and my test model had me end up with virtually the same pose. It's just the only one you can use if you still want to see your gun without looking down.

DC: I still think that's a good idea and would like to incorporate the trade off of dropping the spent/partial mag for speed's sake, or taking longer to pocket the magazine for a longer reload.

Don't know yet about manually topping off magazines, though I give credit for Receiver for showing how much of that kind of level of detail can work.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 17th, 2012, 5:05 pm 
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right, but the obrez stuff complicates it even further. you do love your hard solutions


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 18th, 2012, 10:46 am 
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Well, hence the "feeder box" idea for loose-rounds fed weapons, of which there are several at this point. Otherwise I just have the rounds loose in one of the pouches, which will be a decent visual, I just don't like the idea of them jiggling around loose. We'll see.


Oh and technically an Obrez could be fed by charger clips as well, but that's always been an exquisite exercise in frustration in my experience when dealing with the Mosin Nagant. So to reduce the relevant reloading logic (giving myself one small reprieve from hard solutions), the Obrez loads a round at a time. As does the Dardick.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 18th, 2012, 4:04 pm 
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Put the single rounds in one of those rack-mount-things you see on the side of shotguns (its an upgrade for the shotgun in Blood Money - I have no idea what its proper name is).


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 19th, 2012, 3:12 am 
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on a shotgun it's usually called a "saddle"


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 19th, 2012, 4:11 am 
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If you have an ammo pouch with individual rounds inside it you MUST add a few looping sound effects of bullets clanking when you run and the sound would change depending on how many bullets you have.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2012, 12:47 am 
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note to self for later: include achievement for firing a thousand trounds from a dardick. the achievement is "tround hound"


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2012, 11:13 am 
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For the single shot weapons could you perhaps wear a 'saddle' type thing as I described above (thanks captainzeros) on the right forearm? I have no idea of the practicalities of wearing live ammunition on your arm but it would give you an easy visual clue as to how many rounds you have left - especially if they're in little individual pockets.

It maybe sounds a little bizarre, but such stowage systems already seem to exist...

http://www.usmilitarysurplus.com/surpluscatalog/product_info.php?products_id=1245

Just replace the shotgun shells for single 7.62 rounds - or whatever the Nagant fires.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2012, 12:37 pm 
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I was under the impression that the main character in Animal Memory would be wearing a suit


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2012, 12:40 pm 
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Yeah me too. That would be great.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2012, 1:38 pm 
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Maybe you start off with a nice grey suit and it's the player's choice to add all the additional things to help him/her survive and fight more efficiently. Or! you play the game with just the suit and carry nothing but a revolver and bullets in all your pockets.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2012, 10:52 am 
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Image


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2012, 12:28 pm 
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zombieOnion wrote:
I was under the impression that the main character in Animal Memory would be wearing a suit


Suits are still in, but with a chicom over top of it. Very fashionable.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2012, 1:12 pm 
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Can you at least add the buckshot suit linked above as a Pre-order bonus?


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2012, 2:29 pm 
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Fonic wrote:
Can you at least add the buckshot suit linked above as a Pre-order bonus?


Only at Gamestop.


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: October 1st, 2012, 4:06 pm 
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married, btw. pics soon :)


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 Post subject: Re: Screenshots for the faithful
PostPosted: October 1st, 2012, 4:24 pm 
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Congrats! Being married is awesome.

Darkchild


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