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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 8:24 am 
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The Geometry of Circles

Circle inspiration for this concept, plus Philip Glass on Sesame Street what?


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: February 1st, 2012, 5:32 am 
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Sesame Street was certainly a lot more... progressive, back in the '70s... :o


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: February 1st, 2012, 3:41 pm 
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Something that just sprung to mind was Resident Evil 1's lame ass heartbeat health meter.


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: February 1st, 2012, 4:04 pm 
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dudeglove wrote:
Something that just sprung to mind was Resident Evil 1's lame ass heartbeat health meter.


How did that work? I never played Resident Evil (I know, what?).


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: February 1st, 2012, 7:02 pm 
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You took damage, the heartbeat monitor went faster and changed color. Green-Yellow-Red-Dead


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: February 2nd, 2012, 3:46 am 
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Pretty much, but it always seemed slightly vague in its green/yellow/red/dead damage range. The upside was that it was reflected in character movement. Jill would clutch her side and visibly limp a bit, which I guess was sort of a first-ish for the time? Other titles in that period that spring to mind didn't really do anything of the sort - Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time just had annoying beeping, Lara Croft had a health bar, numbers everywhere else.

The downside was I hated Resident Evil, but bring back the camp live action intros plz.


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: February 2nd, 2012, 5:59 pm 
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I actually liked the vague health indication in RE. You shouldn't know exactly how close you are to death in a game like that. Only that it's bad and getting worse.

I hated that game because the camera was terrible and you walk like a truck.


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: March 2nd, 2012, 12:40 pm 
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First, this isn't a criticism but rather an observation: if your ideal health system is elegant and simple, I don't think you've met those criteria with this system. It's interesting, but the average player is probably going to be confused as hell the first time he sees that status diagram.

Say what you want about Gears of War (I think it's a terrible game, and therefore I have a lot of very bad things I want to say about it), the health system is simple and elegant. You get shot, your screen turns red. When your screen turns all the way red, you die. Hide behind a rock and the screen gets less red. Bad system? I would say so, but it's certainly simple and elegant.

gauss wrote:
Thoughts?

To think of it now it seems unlike X-Wing/Tie Fighter's systems management subgame, now that I think about it, though with less of a direct control mechanism. Much like the proposed amendments to gun handling, I think it's success is going to depend on calibrating other core interdependent systems and pacing in a manner that makes this elaboration makes sense, because it is more elaborate than standard health systems these days.
Also I don't think it's going to be playing nice with my recent flirtations with Doom style movement, but that's a different topic.


The energy management system works very well in TIE Fighter and X-Wing because the player always has one hand on the joystick actually flying the craft, and then one hand on the keyboard doing nothing but managing the craft. The system works in TIE Fighter because you're basically able to keep one hand managing those systems all of the time, and the game is built around that. In a first person shooter, you need one hand on the mouse acting as your eyes and aim, and a second hand on the keyboard acting as your legs.

If your plan is to have a system with three different status resources to manage, then you need to think carefully about how hard it's going to be for the player to manage them while performing the other functions, like jumping across pipes or shooting floating skulls. Unless your goal is to make use of boost items impractical/impossible in a firefight (which I think would be interesting), you could wind up just overwhelming the player.

Also please don't make the screen turn all red when the player takes damage.


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: March 2nd, 2012, 12:47 pm 
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All good points. I think when I say "elegant" I mean "graphically simple", because you're right, the three factor health concept is anything but simple. In fact what I was going for was the opposite of simple with the system, I wanted to get away from games that always had my character an arbitrary integer value between perfect functioning and death.

And I have thought around a lot of the questions of how the various health items will work. Though I have never played it, I am given to understand that Action Quake and its ilk revolved around having to bandage while ducking out of fire for a moment; I think the restoratives of most stripe (save healing for one of the factors, thereby increasing it's value?) would function like that. They do not instantly replenish.

Goes back to the Fallout experience: even when on hardcore, stimpacks do not replenish health immediately, in the quiet sanctuary of my inventory screen I may dogpile as many of the stims into my system in a single instant as I care to.

But then this is assuming very different health systems in response to very different gameplay. If I end up whittling down to a more standard shooter experience because my prototype gameplay is terrible, then the three-factor likely goes with it.

I feel pretty good, though. And I will get back to said prototyping post-GDC.


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: March 2nd, 2012, 12:55 pm 
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Considering that the game is going to be sort of a roquelike, do you think that some form of a permanent negative effect could come from taking really bad damage. Like for an example: worse aim.


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: March 2nd, 2012, 4:02 pm 
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El butterfly wrote:
Considering that the game is going to be sort of a roquelike, do you think that some form of a permanent negative effect could come from taking really bad damage. Like for an example: worse aim.


more permanent status effects are tricky, but yeah i have been thinking of things along those lines.


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: March 2nd, 2012, 4:31 pm 
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Metal gear solid 4 had kind of an insteresting take on that. Near the end of the game Snake is getting weaker and weaker and even his senses were getting weaker. If in some of the last battles of the game you look at a flashbang flash, it would leave a black smur in the center of the screen to make aiming harder. It would not leave untill the final battle i think.


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: November 14th, 2012, 1:48 am 
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Link

Here's a basic working model of the 3 factor health system I threw together for your enjoyment.


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: November 14th, 2012, 6:39 am 
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I love the message that comes up when you run out of circles.


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 Post subject: Re: three factor health system: beyond throwback and regen
PostPosted: November 14th, 2012, 2:36 pm 
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Still blown away by this skoosc, thanks so much. I immediately started tweaking the variables, and honestly I feel reasonably vindicated by the concept, at least in this modeling exercise.

But then it's largely your modeling (and understanding of the model) that drives it, I can't take a huge amount of credit for the basis. This keeps hope alive for advancing this kind of thing!


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