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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 2:08 pm 
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I had a pretty similar experience to johnb- after checking out the pumphouse on the right (where did everyone else go first?) my immediate goal was trying to get into the main building. You've made a really fun space to explore, I was constantly finding lots of cool little areas that I didn't expect to be there, and going up from the weirdness of the lower basement into the huge room was great. Whole building looks great too, though I have to agree that the ubiquitous darkness made navigation in a few places unclear at first glance. To alleviate this I don't think you have to light everything up so much as just highlighting any doors/stairs etc. Or to use the terminology in vogue, you need light anywhere that the path branches.

On the subject of branching, it's pretty difficult to say what works when there aren't any enemies or objectives. Most of the map flows okay- the difficulty of getting into the building made it seem like a goal in itself. But if, say, this was supposed to be a relaxed safe/trading area then the lack of a front door would be strange. On the other hand if it's the setting of an extended firefight then the smaller sorta-hidden areas are unlikely to get much play. As a tape-hunting exploration game though? You're golden.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 2:29 pm 
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Radiatoryang wrote:
- this is a hard level design problem to solve: how to make a surreal space that still offers some built-in assumptions for players to use to navigate... if this were a library, I'd know there's a front lobby, some archives, a reading room... right now this is a pipeline / gutted neoclassical thing? it looks really cool, but I don't know how to navigate or read this culturally. is it a fortress? a hideout? I definitely didn't expect to find that cistern area -- which was impressive, but it was also, like "how do I fight in here and what's happening?"


no you're perfectly right, relatable building plans are important and i had every intention of doing so in the main library area, but ran out of time. and fancifully stuck a pipe through the backwall, when i had intended to have offices, even bathrooms and the like. didn't even get any books on the bookshelves, this is how pinched for time i was.

sensible building layouts are going to be hand in hand with elucidating the accretion architecture as explained before.


Radiatoryang wrote:
- dark saturated palette is very very cool and sexy, but it makes the level very hard to visually read for me, e.g. stairs blend in with walls, relying on silhouettes so much... I would make the ambient / fill lights brighter. in general, I'd try to follow the Natural Selection ethos with this / "Hollywood night" -- make it feel dark and saturated, but not actually be that dark, if that's possible. I won't lecture you on color, you probably understand the theory much better than me, but as a player I'm just saying it was hard to figure out how to get to where I wanted to go, and part of it was finding "hidden" stairs in plain sight. and what happens when seppos are shooting at me and I have to squint to barely see them, and I have to run and quickly find cover?


working method makes revising colors very easy, and it's going to be an important point of both color palette management as well as lighting. color was as slapdash as the lighting, i didnt even color a single one of the pipes. so yeah, should see strides in this area on the next build. also as mentioned, arming the player with their own flashlight etc is going to be helpful too. maybe even flares too, a la the original AVP

Radiatoryang wrote:
- which leads me to another concern: how to read this in terms of gameplay affordances, when you don't have any gameplay in place yet. We might want to give DX3 shit for how linear and simple the level layouts were, but at least they were readable and simple enough to execute a plan -- "that's the sniper balcony, that's the security room, that's my destination, that's the rocket launcher dude, there's boxes in the middle with some bullshit patrol routes, and here's my plan."


yeah i wouldnt read too much into this current layout, as it was as much to do with getting up to speed with asset creation and assembling them in a sensible way. (how's that for game developer rationalizations)

Radiatoryang wrote:
- in that underground cistern room with arches, put landmarks half-sunken in the water to help with orientation, and consider making the arches a bit bigger for just a bit less repetition (the pattern silhouette effect was cool kind of dizzying for me), and/or add some windows to the cistern area to get some light coming in to help orient.


cistern colonnade definitely needs more landmarks as well as readable lighting.

Radiatoryang wrote:
default UDK movement feels really awful, yikes


that's not default UDK movement, that's playing with some freely posted code. and it is janky, no question, so the next build will switch back over to an alternate player controller i have.

Radiatoryang wrote:
- in general, I think the BioShock Infinite concept of "player RAM" is really applicable here. everything here is so densely packed, so full of stuff, that it's hard to keep everything in my head and I end up choosing random paths (the easier way) than strategizing on some basic level, e.g. "I want to walk there." Say I'm playing Stalker, and I'm outside a building -- a small vertical line of windows on the corner exterior might indicate a stairwell, so I'm going to try to pathfind there to control the stairs. In comparison, this central building is a black box.


if bioshock dealt with player RAM then i think they only believed in players having 64k. (oh hohoho)

i think the combination of interconnected loops not unlike multiplayer maps combined with better signposting/identifiable cardinal direction points (front of building different from rear, etc) should take care of a lot of that. also, that has a lot to do with what i hope to accomplish with the accretion architecture model: at a glance, you will know which level you are on, which is another orienting cue

Radiatoryang wrote:
- I think your next step is to implement an NPC grunt, add some gun archetypes, and think about how to shape encounter spaces. Use default UDK stuff if you have to. Already, I see an optimal strategy being something like stand outside, fire wildly to attract attention, then snipe vulnerable NPCs as their pathfinding AI tells them to walk along the unprotected catwalks snaking around the building. Or something like that.


this is very good advice for approaching the next milestone for shaping the game


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 4:15 pm 
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The first place I went was to the little thing in the water with the tape, then the wooden planks up to the pipe house. I understand the concept of being paralyzed by choice but I don't think it bothered me that much. I just kind of walked around the main building a bit to get a feel for it and then got in by swimming through those pipes. I really liked the way everything looked and the sun coming in through the blinds had a really great effect. I think the only problem I had was I spent way too much time trying to get up on the roof because I was convinced there was a tape up there. I still don't know if its possible to get up on the roof. Good job Gauss!


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 6:36 pm 
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Thanks Jupa :) and thanks for playing. I fully intended to allow you to get on the roof, but time did not permit to turn out the environment to that degree. Should be forthcoming, along with what I expect is a fairly dramatic reordering of the overall space.

So long as there is a sense of discovery I think I'm on the right track :)


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 6:41 pm 
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My route path was water thing, then a circuit around the building, then up the pipeline building, across into the main structure, explored the upper floors, then doubled back to the twin corridors below the building and worked my way back up into the library. The tape on the yellow desk was the last one that i picked up, which seemed appropriate enough.

I have a couple of thoughts on the architecture and flow. First, if you haven't already you need to take time to sit down and play Dark Souls-- for other reasons too, but particularly here because of their unique level architecture. Pretty much everything you can see in the game you can at some point get to, and everything is connected in a series of concentric loops so that what starts out as a linear path suddenly becomes much more dynamic once you open them up to the secondary branches. On my second playthrough of the game I ended up taking an almost completely different path through the areas.

So in response to the bewilderment that multiple branches can sometimes inspire, one approach you might take is to have a more limited number of approaches to an area but which then open up after you find ways to further unlock the area via keys and switches. Another way that the branching might be more manageable is by making sure one somehow overlooks the other so that you still maintain a visual perspective on the two different branches.

Either way I might just bring the 360 down for christmas so you can play and not feel bad that you're not doing work.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 9:01 pm 
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You mentioned a revival of old school level design. Are you going to incorporate lots of secret areas and monster closets? One of the things that I always loved about Doom, Heretic and Quake was how some levels had half a dozen secret areas.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 10:09 pm 
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Traps and secret areas yes, monster closets very likely not. Unless there was some kind of monster that makes any sort of sense to be dormant in a closet. Like a robot skeleton.

I hope to exercise an odd sort purity of execution, in terms of being true to how games convey mood and information, rather than film. Something I've been talking with people about is being adamant about certain touches relating to this. For example, no level-designer placed corpses anywhere in the game. Posed in some way that never occurs "naturally" in games, with bloodstreaks that never show up otherwise, they are completely static to a player, they're furniture. They no more represent threat or danger than any other dead mesh in the world. Similarly, no "fake" bullet holes will riddle the world. Just as level-designer placed corpses, "fake" bulletholes devalue the presence of the ones that actually occur within the bounds of the gameplay, which is the world's only true reality.

Two contrasting examples: you come upon a dead futuristic gasmask soldier, bathed in gore, a note of warning scrawled in blood behind him. Shell casings (which never stick around otherwise) and bullet holes litter the scene. There is a long drag mark, signs of struggle. The scene is also exactly the same every time you come to it, you know there is no danger whatsoever until you round the corner that triggers a cutscene, with your assailant falling upon your character (also uninteractive). By the time you regain control over your character, the badguy has already disappeared.

Contrast this to a region of a map that is freely traversable, but also one free of the perfunctory war torn set-dressing de rigeur in so many games. You turn a corner on the hunt for supplies and freeze, because you were just here 5 minutes ago. And now there's a corpse. Say the blood effects aren't spectacular, or dramatically arranged, but say they actually give spot-check forensic information: the blood pool slowly spreads out, so you can give a loose estimation how recently this has just happened. This one's blood pool is only just spreading, but the body has already been looted. You unshoulder your rifle, check for a round in the chamber, and step quietly around to look for the killer.


Intimating that, ideally, the game would feature various kinds of engagements, most of them not lethal, but potentially so, and potentially so between NPCs. If it sounds a little like that Sap and the Heater design sketch I posted, it should. I am still convinced that the most interesting sorts of gunplay a game could deliver would contain the threat of violence but only rarely resort to the fully lethal sort.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 25th, 2011, 8:36 am 
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After reading everything I decided that a first time playthrough recording might be of use to you so here it is. I tried to explore as much as possible and get the tapes. Haven't really counted how many I got.

The quality is really low mainly because I didn't want to spend too long a time uploading it. I hope it helps show how a player, seeing the level for the first time in action, navigates and what he does. Of course, this is just my perspective on it, I'm sure everybody else did things completely differently.




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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 25th, 2011, 2:01 pm 
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Sweet, Chaya, thanks for the post.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 25th, 2011, 6:55 pm 
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Absolutely Chaya, thanks so much. I wanted to get a release out for Christmas, but a video of someone's first playtesting is a gift in return. With my girlfriend's family at the moment so reviewing the video is going to have to wait, but I appreciate it very much.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 26th, 2011, 6:14 am 
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WHAT KIND OF MAN PLAYS WITH THE Y INVERTEAMDAS;SKDASLD[ASDASLDNALSD;A
DK
LASDASJLDNL

(Ultra)Quick Impression:
- It seems too dark. A flashlight might be useful.
- Some of the "corridor" sections seem too narrow, considering the avatar's speed.
- The art style looks cool, not rly cell shaded, but close. I like it.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 26th, 2011, 4:59 pm 
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Jupa wrote:
The first place I went was to the little thing in the water with the tape, then the wooden planks up to the pipe house. I understand the concept of being paralyzed by choice but I don't think it bothered me that much. I just kind of walked around the main building a bit to get a feel for it and then got in by swimming through those pipes. I really liked the way everything looked and the sun coming in through the blinds had a really great effect. I think the only problem I had was I spent way too much time trying to get up on the roof because I was convinced there was a tape up there. I still don't know if its possible to get up on the roof. Good job Gauss!


I did exactly this. the wooden frame thing in the water, wooden planks, scaffolding to get high as possible. I want to get on that roof.

Darkchild


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 26th, 2011, 5:41 pm 
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I completely missed the stairs in the main room, and only got to the second level via the pipes and a very treacherous walk along the ledges. Was it intentional to start on a pier in view of an obsolescent landmark with multiple entrances? I only noticed the similarity while writing this up, but I'm certain my subconscious caught it earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2011, 9:30 am 
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First thing I did was jump in the water and run towards the empty horizon to see how far I could get.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2011, 9:44 am 
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Fonic wrote:
First thing I did was jump in the water and run towards the empty horizon to see how far I could get.

:)


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2011, 10:00 am 
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gauss wrote:
There's a church in Rome that was built sometime in the Middle ages, sited directly on top of an early Christian church, which was sited on an ancient Roman worship site. You can go down through the basements and literally go down through time.

I have a somewhat similar example; when I was in Lima I visited an old ruins on a hill in the middle of the city. It was made out of little clay/mud blocks stacked in rows like dominoes and seperated by horizontal planes - but rather than be placed exactly vertical, the bricks all had a slight lean to them. Much of the ruin had eroded with time and archeologists had rebuilt parts of the structure, however they stacked the bricks vertically, presumably assuming that the ancient Lima people hadn't discovered Right Angles, or something.
When a big earthquake subsequently rocked Lima, the rebuilt (vertical) sections crumbled to the ground whereas the centuries old wall with its skewed bricks stood firm. As it turned out, the historic people of Lima knew more about Civil Engineering against Earthquakes than their modern counterparts as the positioning of the bricks enhanced its stability under seismic activity.

I can dig out my photos of it but the ruin itself was incredibly underwhelming to look at, especially against Lima's permanently overcast skyline. I was more interested in the concept of an ancient structure being built upon or renovated, but the rebuilds totally failing the test of time compared to its antiquated parent.

Anyway that's enough architectural geekery from me.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 31st, 2011, 4:08 pm 
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Totally awesome story Fonic, thanks for sharing it. Not boring or geeky at all, very much in the same mental space as the work that's been going into my game. The tricky part is clarifying these concepts well enough that they "read" to the end user.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 31st, 2011, 6:58 pm 
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johnb wrote:
As Radiatoryang touched on, it is hard to evaluate the level without knowing what sort of enemies it will be populated with. But, I just wanted to comment on how I felt navigating the empty level, with respect to your comment above. A recent Penny Arcade article talked about Gabe feeling paralyzed by choice playing Skyrim. I felt a little of that playing through the level. I ended up overcoming it by choosing randomly. But, combat posturing may provide enough impetus to push the player down the path of least resistance/most cover.

On the conceptual side, after I typed the above, I made a little diagram (from memory, sorry for where it's wrong) of the level, thinking about it in terms of tree search. Different colors represent different heights, but it isn't terribly important to follow the map exactly. You probably already have this map scribbled somewhere.
Image
Please imagine a railroaded, purely linear, level as a tree with no forks - a straight line from beginning to end. Your non-linear level has plenty of choices. I think that I actually felt anxiety as a player when I was confronted with more than two forks or choices. Or maybe it was the accumulation of those choices. Part of the algorithms for search include keeping track of the "frontier" of unexplored branches. This is a list of paths not taken. Personally, I can only keep that list at about 2 or 3. More than that and I start forgetting which paths I need to go back and explore. This level tends to loop back on itself to present those choices to you again, which I think is a useful and entertaining trick.

I think that your level actually does pretty well for limiting the number of paths, while making it seem like it is highly nonlinear. The loop around the building helps with that. Some subtle lighting and decluttering to make options more recognizable would help guide the player more. Not sure that it needs that without seeing the effect of pressure from enemies yet, though. Eventually, even without any external prompting or mission briefing, my goal became 'how the hell do I get into this big interesting building?' which I think is pretty great design.



I feel bad because I have been thinking about this post and formulating a response for a while, but not had the opportunity to sit down and prepare the response over the holiday. But I think I have it (with my own diagrams to boot!)

Yang and John make very good points about search algorithms and the player's sense of the world. Both how the player makes choices as well as issues of production bandwidth factor here. By the latter I mean that however much I might want to make some open-world type gameplay spaces, I know it's a fool's errand for one man.

So the discussion in the thread helped formalized what I needed to tackle.

1) Give the player meaningful navigation choices
2) Keep level production reasonable / give room for later expansion (DLC etc)
3) Not paralyze player with too many options/paths at any given moment

A lot of these were in line with the previous iteration that involved gathering supplies and getting on the train. The trouble was that too much production would be involved in the train-related assets and gameplay concepts. But I thought the basics of having to gather sufficient supplies to make it to the next stop still made plenty of sense.

And I realized that I had already given quite a bit of thought to limited, but still meaningful ways of tackling player-chosen navigational issues: my blog post on multilinear L4D design. Freed from the design constraints imposed technically by L4D, I could apply a lot of those same design concepts to my own game and come up with a fairly ideal solution.

Bonus, I realize that what I have been calling Morning Star Station (the giant spikey upside down tower) comes back into the game, which makes me happy.
Image

So the game will still start out with this crazy tower looming over the start level. The difference is that once you finish the first level, you are given the choice of heading out in the four cardinal directions, with one of the routes randomly blocked.
For example, in the AMTest1 environment, imagine that in one game you could leave the level by walking along the pipeline, but the next time the pipeline is blocked or damaged. The blockages help keep the player from being tempted to take the same route every time. But I think the overworld layout will remain consistent, in order to give some benefit from learning the different levels.

From the start level there are three concentric rings of levels, each progressively farther away.
Image

To move to the next ring you're going to need more supplies. So while the first ring can be traversed while only visiting one of the levels (though you could visit all four conceivably if you want to be a completist), in the second ring you need to visit at least two levels before making it to the third ring. Which is why the second ring has twice the levels of the first, so people don't get tired of grinding second ring levels on multiple playthroughs.

Anyway, here are two example playthroughs:

Image
Image


this scheme has a few added wrinkles I think show it's early promise: the four penultimate 3rd ring levels all provide a different access/method of entry to the tower. (Say one is a helicopter flight or the like, one is a funicular, etc.)
Image

This scheme also gives rise for the potential for "random encounter" short level experiences between levels, too. Gives easy points for expansion of content with DLC or the like--more levels can be added to the rings, or more rings can be added in total for a longer play experience. Which in turn suggests a feature, like boardgames that are played on cards that are placed on the table to create the playspace: being able to choose game length for another playthrough by making the world larger or smaller, removing the number of levels you need to traverse in order to complete the game.

The way I think this will be carried through in the game will be, like in the original Fallout, you have a boundary around a level that represents traveling out of it. When you hit it, you can tab through the different directions of travel you have at your disposal. The horizon will essentially be empty except for these points of interest, so the travel interface will be turning the camera to look at each of them, maybe displaying a portentous location name and an estimate requirement for supplies needed to travel there safely. Can you intentionally take a hit on supplies and travel to a place anyway, with the attendant drop in stats? Ascetic playthroughts here we come



Oh, and there's more about having the structure and playthrough of the final tower mirror the way the rest of the levels are structured, just more challenging, but that's for later. I also have a good idea of how I am going to revise the tower design to fit with the world of the game now.

Much much more to come and so many more ideas to discuss. We're in a good place for the next test build. Happy New year, everybody.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: December 31st, 2011, 7:21 pm 
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Sounds really interesting, Jack. I like the sound of everything in there. S'gonna be great.

(Only in a video game level design forum is the word funicular dropped so casually. -5 points for me for having to wiki that.)


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: January 12th, 2012, 7:37 pm 
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First one to read this thread again gets a free copy of Just Cause 2. You know... just 'cause.



go to http://www.geforce.omc/FREEJustCause2
and redeem this serial

74W2G-MRHRX-89NF4-W8IVL-6G7YQ

Make sure you reply with dibs if you redeem this.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: January 12th, 2012, 8:11 pm 
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Thanks Gauss!


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: January 13th, 2012, 2:37 am 
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:) enjoy


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: January 13th, 2012, 2:49 pm 
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note to self: begin conditioning player community to expect random promo codes in all my posts


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: January 13th, 2012, 3:38 pm 
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Note to self, be disappointed whenever Gauss posts without giving me a present.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTest01 (DOWNLOAD HERE)
PostPosted: January 13th, 2012, 4:39 pm 
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Sometimes the promo code actually unlocks three games. Sometimes it is just a virus.


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